Dining across the divide: ‘He is a straight man of a certain age; he can dismantle his motorbike’

Robert, 59, Buckinghamshire

Occupation Business owner

Voting record Mainly Conservative, also Ukip. Leave in the EU referendum. “Twenty years ago I’d have been centre. Now I’m probably extreme right.”

Amuse bouche After seven years, Robert achieved a bucket-list dream: a flight in a two-seater Spitfire

Joel, 25, London

Occupation Student and campaigner

Voting record Joel hasn’t voted in the UK. He came here in 2019 as an asylum seeker. Joel, who identifies as non-binary, didn’t have voting options in Nigeria: homosexuality is illegal and “no one had LGBT rights in their manifesto”

Amuse bouche Joel has an acting background and can recite the speeches of Hamlet and Othello

For starters

Robert I said: “I’m not using [non-binary] pronouns, sorry.” You can call yourself what you like, but I have the right to call you what I like. He had no problem with that.

Joel “He” is fine. He/him, they/them, even she/her. Robert is a straight man of a certain age: he believes a man is a man; he can dismantle and maintain his motorbike and stuff.

Robert I was looking forward to debating the issues, but conversation was difficult – not just because of the age difference, but because of our opposing ideals and cultures. He’s had a rough ride, but we all have to live by the laws of the country we grow up in.

Joel I have my feminine and masculine energy. Sometimes they are at odds with each other; sometimes they come together to create something beautiful. He was like: “Yeah?” I was like: “That is my truth and you cannot tell me what my truth is.”

The big beef

Robert I talked about mass immigration, how it affects the community we live in, my children. If it is uncontrolled, no one is screened; generally the people who come don’t bring wealth of any sort.

Joel I mentioned the people working in the NHS and in care, people giving back to society. I talked about fear-mongering by politicians and what the media feeds people. But if you look at the numbers of people coming, Britain is way behind Germany, Italy and many other European countries.

Robert Immigration last year was 600-odd thousand; that’s 600,000 people going to the toilet six times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, in water usage alone, and the UK infrastructure has not been expanded to cope. We haven’t built a major reservoir here since about 1992.

Joel People fear what they don’t know. Humans are higher animals, but when it comes to territory, it’s normal for them to protect it.

Robert Fleeing persecution is different – I don’t have an issue with that, as long as the people who come make the effort to engage in the communities they live in and don’t try to change it to how they want it to be.

Sharing plate

Joel We did have common ground in that neither of us has all the answers.

Robert We were extreme polar opposites. I wouldn’t say there was any common ground, but maybe understanding is the right word – as in, appreciating the other’s point of view.

For afters

Joel I talked about how the Christian doctrine came to Nigeria, and being born into relics of empire and harmful practices that were imported.

Robert It’s too easy to look back from today and go: “That was wrong.” It was wrong putting Christians in front of lions but that was then; not now.

Joel The results of what Britain has done are still present. Amalgamating the protectorates of northern and southern Nigeria never worked – these people who had lived separate, peaceful lives. It’s a failed British experiment. Obviously, no one alive now had any hand in it, but that does not absolve Britain’s duty of care and of at least trying to right the wrongs.

Robert Why wouldn’t we be getting on to Germany for both wars, which for some are actually within living memory? We haven’t been going after them for reparations, have we?

Takeaways

Joel I give him points for honesty. You can’t change people; they are complex beings and you have to respect that.

Robert I imagine it was difficult for both of us. I said: “Good luck going forward”, then just left. There was no swapping numbers. It was a beautiful place, the food was good, but I don’t know if I’d dare go back; I’d get PTSD.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

Joel and Robert ate at The Stables at The Grove in Chandler’s Cross, Hertfordshire

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